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acting on your best behaviour

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the world...

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Pop music was still
<font color="

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It hadn't sort of
stagnated, stalled,

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diversified into streaming,
like it is nowadays.

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We were young, we were both
good-looking, especially Curt...

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HE LAUGHS
..and we had the right music.

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discover ourselves,

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trying to do things with more depth,

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trying to become musically
better at what we do.

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Let it all out

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I can do without

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<font color="

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The songs were difficult to just sit
down and just...pick up and play.

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But at the same time,

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they had simple lines
that you could sing along with.

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The textures in their songwriting,

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the different moods that were set,
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were impressive.

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and I'm head over heels

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till I'm head over heels

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and I'm head over heels

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Don't throw it away...

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You would never normally get three
songs that strong on an album,

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but balance that out with tracks
like Listen, The Working Hour -

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all those things that give it air
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I think is what makes it something
more than just the sum of its parts.

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in the darkness

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In the casino

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<font color="
that had something to say

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said it in such an anthemic matter
that you were singing along with it

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without even meaning to.

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By the '80s, we were on 14 million,
16 million albums?

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And by now, all these years later...

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But it was just huge.

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Absolutely huge.

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the world.

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MUSIC: Shout
by Tears For Fears

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<font color="
Let it all out...

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Roland had been given
this time off to write.

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One afternoon, went round his house

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and he just played
these three notes...

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..bass notes, and sang,
"Shout, shout, let it all out.

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I can do without. Come on."

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And I was like, "Oh, my God!"

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This is just anthemic,
simple, brilliant.

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The thing about Shout was,
the very first time I heard it,

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we were in the studio
and Ian came in.

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what Roland's been doing

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"over the weekend." Yeah.

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And he played the part
and it was just...

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HE HUMS INTRO TO SHOUT

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It was unbelievably haunting.

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And he just hit a note on the synth
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just off the cuff, and we said,
"Stop everything.

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"We have to record this now."

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They set up the microphone.
I sang it four times, tracked it.

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And that's what you hear to this
day. And it just... I agree...

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I agree - it sounds great.

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There's something about it.
I believed it.

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Let it all out

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I can do without

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And we started with this intro,
didn't we? Oh, yes! Of course!

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Which was... Never got used.

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Yeah. And was basically
this nice guitar part.

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INSTRUMENTAL PLAYS

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Fantastic line!

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when we got rid of.

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And then it comes in,
the main thing comes in. Yeah.

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Dave Bascombe, who, you know,
was fantastic, would be more likely

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to be asleep on top of the newspaper
than be arguing with us -

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make a decision about something...

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So Dave brought a certain ease
to the process... Totally.

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A kind of cuddly lion, sort of,
at the front of the desk.

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But Curt and I, again,
we were working as a duo with

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who was our keyboard player,

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and Chris Hughes. It was their
relationship that allowed us to,

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or forced us
into a more expansive sound.

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When I wrote Shout, I imagined it to
be just simple rotation of a chorus,

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give peace a chance" -

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goes round and round and round
and round in a hypnotic way.

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Ian and Chris said, "No, no.

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"We're turning this into a proper
song with verses and everything."

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I said, "Really?!"

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it had to have slightly more
traditional song structure,

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but because it was slowish
and the chorus was long,

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it was always going to be
a long, epic...

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..thing, you know.

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to build and build,

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keep your interest,
keep going, keep going

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and get bigger and bigger.

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The track Roland brought in -
or the demo -

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had the basic chorus going on.
Yeah, yeah.

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wasn't it? Yeah.

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And then Ian and Roland set to
work on the verse structure,

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and I think the Fairlight...

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Ian working the Fairlight flutes
was a magical moment.

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kind of integral. Yes. Yeah.

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We came back and heard this noise -
heavy, heavy noise -

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with these flutes and the sort of
Drumulator and, you know,

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When The Levee Breaks drum sound.

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Unrecognisable.

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And I remember walking
into the studio, I said to...

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I said to myself, really, "I mean,
can we get away with this?

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"Can we really do something
that is that obvious?"

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You know?

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<font color="

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So here we are in the middle eight,

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which was like a landing strip for
all manner of experimentation.

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Tried loads of ideas. Yeah.

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Got some... My little funky guitar.
Beautiful guitar.

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And then you're...Mr Chris Hughes...

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DRUM TRACK PLAYS
..on the drums.

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There we go - snare drum.

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Chris Hughes, our producer,
was also a drummer.

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He was Merrick in Adam And The Ants.

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We knew he produced
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We didn't know that he was Merrick
from Adam And The Ants.

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He was the actual drummer.

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And then we had the real toms.
Yeah. Back to the Fairlight ones.

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So here's your real ones.

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DRUM TRACK PLAYS

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<font color="
the Fairlight ones.

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SYNTH DRUM TRACK PLAYS

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Do you remember, we started hitting
keyboard stands with screwdrivers?

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That's right. For the clacking bit.
Triple tracked or something. Yeah.

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I think one of the things
which was quite interesting

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was the call for a guitar solo...
Oh, yes. ...which was...

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That was quite interesting
because, at that point,

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the idea of having guitar solos
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Yeah. It was the wrong thing to do.
So we did it.

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Let it all out...

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Vocal arrangement aside,
lyrical content aside,

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it...it had a different feel.

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Even though it was
keyboard and bass,

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even though it was,
you know, synthetic

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and had aspects of those
synthesisers

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and everything that was a part
of it, it had this...

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By the end, it's just choir
and emotion and grandiose,

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and it was kind of over the top.

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I'd really love to break your heart

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I can do without

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Judy, Judy, Judy, yeah...

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THEY LAUGH

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Oh, that's right into the fade,
I think. Fantastic.

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Haven't heard that for 35 years.
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It was unlike anything else
that I'd heard around.

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The overall choice of instruments,

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the arrangement and the chorus
just immediately appealed.

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It's very freeing when you...

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..stop being precious about things,
I think.

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with that song in the end.

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We were like, "Yep, let's throw
the kitchen sink at it. Why not?

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"Why not do that? Why not put
the big guitar solo it the end?"

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Or, you know, "Why not have
the loud Drumulator

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round the face?

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"Why not have gigantic
chorus vocals?"

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There was a point - and it was
probably towards the end of Shout -

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where I suddenly got this feeling
that the album was going to be

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It seemed to suddenly
become cohesive.

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I think for me and Roland, it was
more a relief when Shout came along.

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We know that Chris Hughes
and Dave Bates are looking for

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the singles - "What are we
<font color="

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You know, they're thinking
the business side.

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When we're doing something,

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we're not necessarily
just thinking of the singles.

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We're thinking of the body of work.

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Shout just seems to come
from nowhere.

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<font color="

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It was all over the radio.
It was all anyone was singing.

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And this was an anthem
that was really different.

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It had a sort of a soberness to it,
or a sort of a gravity to it.

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But at the same time,
<font color="

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I met Curt
when I was about 13 or 14.

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Roland listened to me singing
to this track

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called Last Days Of May
by Blue Oyster Cult -

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obscure as it is -

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and asked me if I was interested
<font color="

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So that's kind of how it started. We
didn't know each other before then.

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We met by just... By the fact
that he was looking for a singer.

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Singing wasn't something that
I particularly wanted to do

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in the band.

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<font color="
I always wanted to be Jimmy Page,

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you know, and not Robert Plant.

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He formed this band called Graduate.

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They wanted to get rid
of the bass player,

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so then Roland said,
"Can you play bass?"

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And I said, "I could learn."
<font color="

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So I did.

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And we went on a small tour
of Germany, as 18-year-olds,

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in the band called Graduate. Neither
of us enjoyed the experience at all.

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We didn't want to be in the band
because it just got too complicated.

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<font color="
is hard enough.

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Five people trying to agree
just didn't work.

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One night, I said...

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..you know, "I'm going to leave."

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You know, and he said,
"Well, I'm coming with you."

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We met this guy Ian Stanley,
<font color="

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00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,360
He was a bit older than us -
he was 24, I think, then -

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but young, sort of richer kid,
came from a richer family

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and had a home studio in his
big house up on the hill.

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I had a small studio in there.

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<font color="
and maybe a couple of keyboards.

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This, actually, is the studio -
in this room.

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And the living room,
where the piano was,

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and the dinner table was up here.

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He offered it to us.

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He liked what we were doing
<font color="

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and to work with us
and get involved,

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and so that was really the start
of Tears For Fears.

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We started demoing things.

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We'd go up to his house,

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the house where we would eventually
<font color="

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And we'd make these demos.

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The first three demos we made were
Pale Shelter, Mad World and Change.

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And...

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..they obviously went very well.

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00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,240
Roland and Curt took them to...

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00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,400
..Phonogram.

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00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,240
<font color="

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00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,000
We did a little bit of a remix
of a couple of the tracks.

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00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,160
I came back home and thought,
"I'm going to sign them."

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<font color="

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You give me pale shelter...

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00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,680
They played Pale Shelter,
they played Suffer The Children,

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and they played the B-side, which
<font color="

254
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,080
"That's not a B-side.
That's an A-side."

255
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,560
And that was called Mad World.

256
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,080

and I was very nervous

257
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,560


258
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,040

tell me what's my lesson

259
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:10,200
<font color="
Look right through me...

260
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,480
We found ourselves
right at the beginning of

261
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,080
the electronic explosion,
and I found myself -

262
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:23,280
although I'm a guitarist -
absolutely loving the synthesiser

263
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,880
<font color="
turn it into a trumpet.

264
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,640
Synths built the '80s.

265
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,960
So you had bands like
The Human League and Heaven 17,

266
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,640
the spin-off of The Human League.

267
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,320
You had Soft Cell,
you had Cabaret Voltaire.

268
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,720
<font color="
bands like Depeche Mode.

269
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,760
Bands that didn't have a drummer,
bands that used to

270
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,960
work mainly in the studio, use
a tape machine or a drum machine.

271
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,840
And it became THE thing.

272
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,200
We sort of realised that production
<font color="

273
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,280
It was also the start of...

274
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,160
You know, LinnDrums
had just come in,

275
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,200
sequences are being used more,

276
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,680
Gary Numan was doing
what he was doing,

277
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,160
which is, you know,
just pure electronic music.

278
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,120
<font color="
and guitars any more.

279
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,440
So we had this song, put it out -

280
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,040
and weeks later, we had a smash-hit
single on our hands.

281
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:24,720
We managed to combine up-tempo,
upbeat pop with dark lyrics.

282
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,040
And some of those lyrics would
<font color="

283
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,560
He put in things that meant
something to him,

284
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:38,040
but he didn't mean for it
to have the same meaning

285
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,920
for every individual.

286
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,600
And this is the way he wrote.

287
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,800
Sometimes it was very personal

288
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,480
and sometimes it was meant
<font color="

289
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,600
"The dreams in which I'm dying
are the best I've ever had."

290
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,080
From Mad World. I mean...

291
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,680
You know, is it talking
about suicide?

292
00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:02,000
No, it's not really, but, you know,
that didn't stop it from being

293
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,160
<font color="
synthesised pop at the time.

294
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,720

I find it kinda sad

295
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,040

are the best I've ever had

296
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:20,000

cos I find it hard to take

297
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,320
<font color="
It's a very, very

298
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,640


299
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,080
The success came, obviously,

300
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,960
very quickly from the hit of having
Mad World on your hands,

301
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,600
and then desperately trying
to get the album out

302
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,040
onto the back of that.

303
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:41,600
<font color="
and The Hurting as well.

304
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,840
And those sounds, the production
of that record, is so incredible.

305
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,560
All of The Hurting was recorded
in Penthouse Studio in Abbey Road,

306
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,040
and then we finished a lot of it
at our studios in Oxford Circus.

307
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,480
<font color="

308
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,520
I remember working seven days
a week, working late into the night

309
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,120
and going down at 2 o'clock
in the morning

310
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:08,120
to hear Curt crying in the toilets

311
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,880
because he was doing take 36
of Pale Shelter.

312
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,720
<font color="
a chilly heart.

313
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,280
It was spooked and spooky.

314
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,800
It was skeletal in parts,
and yet the songwriting was so good

315
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,160
that it had muscle
and blood and flesh.

316
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,680
By the end of the album,
we'd pretty much got to gold -

317
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,320
<font color="
and heading towards platinum.

318
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,120
So we knew we had a really strong
base from that success.

319
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:39,680
I felt like The Hurting was
tailored to my life somehow,

320
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,080
or at least I was...

321
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,320
..superimposing it onto my life
<font color="

322
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:46,520
and it fit me.

323
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,320
There were bands before us,
bands like Joy Division,

324
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,840
with songs like
Love Will Tear Us Apart.

325
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,560
There were a lot of bands
wearing their heart on their sleeve

326
00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,080
and making darker music.

327
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,000
<font color="

328
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:08,600
and a longing that I felt like
I could relate to or identify with.

329
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,240


330
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,360


331
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:20,000


332
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,960


333
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,560


334
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,280


335
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,720
<font color="
on The Hurting.

336
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,040
That was the thing that most of
the press picked up on

337
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,600
when they reviewed it.

338
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,120
And the British press weren't
very kind to synth-pop bands

339
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:39,560
at the best of times,

340
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,360
but they kind of treated them
<font color="

341
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:45,640
You know, "For heaven's sake,
you boys!" You know?

342
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:46,960
"Stop whining!"

343
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,880
The Hurting was not given its due
in the day,

344
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,800
even it was a number-one album.

345
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,880
Critics didn't warm to it
cos it was kind of...

346
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,520
<font color="
and too soul-bearing for many.

347
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,800
In a sense, we were successful.

348
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,000
We were a commodity. And these...

349
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,240
..I would say benign forces...

350
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,800
..came together - in the shape of
Dave Bates, Ian Stanley

351
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,480
and Chris Hughes -

352
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:21,480
<font color="

353
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,000
So, "No more looking at your shoes,
guys," you know.

354
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,760
"There's a big world out there,
and you can conquer it."

355
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,320
They started touring - and they'd
never been a touring band.

356
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,840
They'd never done
<font color="

357
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,920
So that was a learning curve
for them.

358
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,160
We were 21 when The Hurting
came out.

359
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,560
Yeah, it was strange. No-one teaches
you how to deal with fame.

360
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,280
I didn't understand why people
were screaming at me and thinking

361
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,280
<font color="
didn't feel that inside necessarily.

362
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,720
You know, our album was called
The Hurting. You know?

363
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,960
And suddenly,
you have these young kind of girls

364
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,120
and young people screaming at you
and thinking you're amazing.

365
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:02,000
<font color="
the album is,

366
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,240
"We're not amazing, we're in pain."

367
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,840
I think some of the lyrics -
I pat myself on the back -

368
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:15,440
for an 18-year-old to write...
still stand up today.

369
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,280
I mean, I'm 57,

370
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,720
we play Memories Fade
<font color="

371
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,200
and the lyrics are just...

372
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,520
I love them.

373
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:32,120
The cathartic aspects of performing
and of exorcising those demons

374
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,120
through performance
is irreplaceable.

375
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:37,480
It really is.

376
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,520
It's an incredible thing to be able
<font color="

377
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,320
to channel those emotions,
to get them out.

378
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,000
It was time to really move on
to get the next album out.

379
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,080
We did a tour after The Hurting
and then went back

380
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,320
and really started the body of work
that became

381
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:55,560
<font color="

382
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,480
And I think, once we sort of retired
to Ian's house in Bath

383
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,640
and started putting things together,

384
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,160
that felt like we had
started an album.

385
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,240
And...

386
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,160
And a lot of it also was us
running away from the pressure

387
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,120
<font color="
company wanting something quickly,

388
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:13,600
wanting something tomorrow.

389
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,080
We discussed the possibilities
of not using just synthesisers

390
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,440
on this recording, that perhaps
we should bring guitars back in

391
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,640
and get something
<font color="

392
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,640

that you're not good enough

393
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:36,000

make you better

394
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,080


395
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,360

young and tender...

396
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:47,200
Mothers Talk was a tricky one.

397
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,880
<font color="
the transition record to

398
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,000
get us away from The Hurting.

399
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,600
Mothers Talk was my attempt...

400
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:09,400
It doesn't sound like it, but
my attempt at doing Talking Heads,

401
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,040
with just those two notes.

402
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,720

<font color="

403
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,240
David Byrne, you know.

404
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,480
But I couldn't get away with it.

405
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,160

in the weather

406
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:28,800


407
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,480


408
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,880
It showed that Tears For Fears
were changing

409
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:40,080
<font color="
that robust guitar sound.

410
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,240
In radio terms,
hearing Mothers Talk,

411
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,240
the people at Radio 1 were shocked
because they were used to

412
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,560
the nice synthesiser sounds
of Tears For Fears.

413
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,880

<font color="

414
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,640

Now your house is on fire

415
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,160


416
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:11,600

starts to happen...

417
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:19,640
It's probably not one of his best
<font color="

418
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,080
Its part in this album is crucial.

419
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,520
By not getting Mothers Talk right...

420
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,040
..by re-recording it
at least once more...

421
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,560
..that pushed us
into a different direction.

422
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:41,480
<font color="
but it's a very important song.

423
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,640
The one thing that myself
and Roland had was the same feeling,

424
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,600
which was, "Something is not right."

425
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:53,120
We felt like we were deprived of
a lot of things growing up,

426
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:57,400
but in our two cases
<font color="

427
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,080
I mean, mine, my parents just had
to work all the time,

428
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:01,600
so they had no time for kids.

429
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,440
I grew up with Mum
training strippers...

430
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:13,280
..and with my dad,
who was out of work through illness,

431
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:19,320
<font color="
country-and-western singers or...

432
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,640
..or folk bands.

433
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,480
Roland came from a more middle-class
background, I would say.

434
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,080
Mine was very working-class.

435
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,720
My mother worked in Boots,
my father was a waiter.

436
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,680
<font color="
but the same level of neglect.

437
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,280
My parents split up
when I was about seven,

438
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:46,560
and my mum sort of ended up

439
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,480
with this barman from Bristol.

440
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,680
And so we moved to Beth.

441
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,680
I grew up on a housing estate
in Bath, my hometown.

442
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,440
<font color="
all our lives growing up.

443
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,600
We never had a car.
We never had a phone.

444
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,920
And then when I first met Roland,
we had no phone,

445
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,600
so he'd have to come and get me.

446
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,160
I'd have to go to the call box
to call him,

447
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,880
<font color="

448
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,080
Arthur Janov was
a Californian psychologist

449
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,080
who had a theory of
how the mind works

450
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,600
and how neurosis and depression

451
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,200
and mental illness in general
is developed.

452
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:32,240
Janov was one of those kind of
<font color="

453
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,720
sort of guys, you know?

454
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,360
His first book, The Primal Scream,
came out in 1970.

455
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:39,240
And his whole theory was that

456
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,960
if your parents don't give you
what you need to thrive

457
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,080
or if they hurt you in any way,
<font color="

458
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,520
somehow imprinted
into your entire system.

459
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,360
It's in your blood.
It's in your unconscious.

460
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,200
And the whole idea of Primal Scream
was to bring them up

461
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,480
to the surface by going back
to your childhood in your mind

462
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,120
<font color="
from that kind of unconscious

463
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:07,920
side of your memory and
somehow managing to, I don't know,

464
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,760
face it and get rid of it.

465
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,240
John Lennon - this was post-Beatles,
you know, with Yoko -

466
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,280
read the book and he went,
<font color="

467
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,120
"This is the truth."

468
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:22,520
Suddenly, everything made sense.

469
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,160
All his childhood trauma

470
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:29,880
and the loss of his mother explained
why he was always in so much pain.

471
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,960
I read it and I went...

472
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,720
.."Hallelujah! This is, you know,
my childhood."

473
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,400
<font color="

474
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,480
..was the reason why I wasn't...

475
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,360
..a happy man, you know.
And then I gave it to Curt.

476
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:47,920
And Curt went, "Hallelujah!"

477
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,040
"It's your parents' fault,"
is basically all it's saying.

478
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,480
And then when I started
<font color="

479
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,400
I was really
getting everything out -

480
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,560
shout, shout, letting it all out.

481
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,360
Interestingly, as I've got older,

482
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:04,000
I don't believe
in all of that at all

483
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,120
because his premise was that
children come in a blank slate

484
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:13,480
<font color="
and their parents make them.

485
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,800
But if you have children,
or anyone that has children,

486
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,320
once you have a child,
you realise that's so not true.

487
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,880
Tears For Fears, which Curt
came up with, is a direct...

488
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,680
<font color="
one of Janov's books.

489
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,920
It was very reassuring that
someone had gone into detail

490
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,520
about why we felt the way we felt.

491
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,600


492
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,680

and the pain has gone

493
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:50,080


494
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:56,120
<font color="

495
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,480
I Believe was...

496
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,880
..clearly influenced by
Robert Wyatt.

497
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,400
I was a huge Soft Machine fan -

498
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,120
and subsequently
a huge Robert Wyatt fan -

499
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,960
and Rock Bottom had come out.

500
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,080
And I played it to Roland,

501
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:21,680
<font color="
the emotion and the rawness of it.

502
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,920
I got into virtually all his albums
and I had a go at copying his voice,

503
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,880
so writing very much in the style
of Robert Wyatt,

504
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,480
which led to I Believe.

505
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,320


506
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:43,360
<font color="
just what these tears were for...

507
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,400
See, that's his best Robert
impression at that point.

508
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,760
It's just got the essence
of something that's... It should be.

509
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,520
It's a Robert Wyatt.

510
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,320
Yeah, it's a lovely...
Beautiful singing.

511
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,800
<font color="

512
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:06,040

Fab.

513
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:11,080


514
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:16,320
One of the things that set
Tears For Fears apart

515
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:22,720
from the others, like Spandau Ballet
and Duran Duran, was Roland's voice.

516
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,120
This isn't
<font color="

517
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:33,160
He just has a... Wow...
His voice is, like, this wide.

518
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,640


519
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,720

just what these tears were for

520
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,880


521
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:52,800


522
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,880
Saxophone. That's Will Gregory.
<font color="

523
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,400
Flown in off the demo.

524
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,320
SAXOPHONE TRACK PLAYS

525
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,680
And he just got it dead right.

526
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,240
So, on the demo, he just got
something special... Yeah.

527
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,360
..and then that was used
for the final work.

528
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,320
<font color="
PIZZICATO STRING SYNTH PLAYS

529
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:17,840
This, which was never used.

530
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,080
Which is great. It's fantastic.
Yeah. Let's hear that in context.

531
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,240


532
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,800
Doesn't really need it in the end,
<font color="

533
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,600
That's something that would've fit
onto The Hurting for me.

534
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:41,960
You know? And it was also...

535
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,160
There was once again this melancholy
and lyrics

536
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,440
that, even though I didn't really
know what they meant,

537
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,240
<font color="
that I would use to describe myself

538
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,720
at the time or that I would use
to describe my experience as a human

539
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,200
at the time.
You know, the turmoil of...

540
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,840
The turmoil of adolescence,
you know.

541
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,360
<font color="
about this at great length,

542
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,280
but, you know, for me, it was about
coming to terms with my sexuality,

543
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,120
growing up in a very
religious environment

544
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,440
out in the middle of nowhere
in Colorado.

545
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,960
<font color="
a very specific, you know,

546
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,200
thing at the time.

547
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:25,040
And that was music that made me
feel understood and comfortable.

548
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,160
DAVE: So I Believe was just
a B-side originally...

549
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,000
<font color="
"It's too good.

550
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,160
"We should put it on the album."
Yeah, he was right.

551
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,880
It's one of those ones that,
when I listen to it, I'm like,

552
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,920
"Yeah, I see why people related
to this."

553
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,640
<font color="
Again, going back to the thing

554
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,240
that a lot of albums didn't have at
that time, which was hits AND depth.

555
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,320
Some years later, I remember
receiving a call from the guys

556
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,640
saying that they wanted me
to go on tour with them.

557
00:32:54,640 --> 00:33:01,600
<font color="
I Believe, and suddenly you heard...

558
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,160
CHEERING

559
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,960
..the piano start with
these bass notes.

560
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,760


561
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:23,200

and the pain has gone

562
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,800


563
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:36,800
<font color="

564
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:46,400
How many pop-rock groups
starts with a grand piano on stage?

565
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,960
Except for Elton John, but he's
totally in a class by himself.

566
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,280
But you don't usually expect
Tears For Fears

567
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,560
to have a grand piano on stage.

568
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,760
<font color="

569
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,200
ace a...solo piano piece

570
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,440
which Ian wrote.

571
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,200
At that time, we were
very into a movie

572
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,680
called Merry Christmas, Mr Lawrence,

573
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,280
starring David Bowie and
Ryuichi Sakamoto.

574
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,640
And Ryuichi Sakamoto wrote
<font color="

575
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,080
as well as starring as this
Japanese commandant.

576
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,560
The start of The Working Hour is...

577
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,640
It would certainly have been
influenced by his work.

578
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,200
I came up, separately at home,
with the verse.

579
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,960
<font color="
didn't want them to be put together!

580
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,600
I'm thinking, "You're crazy!
They go so well!"

581
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,440
I mean, the key change
and everything!

582
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,920


583
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,280


584
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,200


585
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,400
<font color="

586
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,680


587
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,640


588
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,320


589
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:14,320

who learn by our mistakes...

590
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,280
One of the things that's underrated,
in my opinion,

591
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,960
on this track is Curt Smith's
<font color="

592
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,240
I mean, it's some fine playing.
Yeah.

593
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,760
He had great parts. Yeah.

594
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,280
This is one of them, yeah.

595
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,600
ISOLATED BASS TRACK PLAYS

596
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,200
Steinberger bass.
<font color="

597
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,440
Of its time but still sounds good
now. Yeah, it's great.

598
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,800
There was...a constant desire
for another single.

599
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,080
And it wasn't like...

600
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,800
Literally any song we had
<font color="

601
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,840
And, yeah, The Working Hour is,

602
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,280
"We are paid by those
who learn by our mistakes,"

603
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:04,680
cos that's the kind of feeling
I had, is that we are

604
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,640
being pushed around,
being told what to do,

605
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,280
and we might end up failing,

606
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,640
<font color="
that again with the next act.

607
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,240


608
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:24,920

who learn by our mistakes

609
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,960


610
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,320
I always wanted to know
what he meant by that line!

611
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,000
THEY LAUGH

612
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,520
<font color="
once you've had a hit because

613
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,640
you're a hit band, so whatever
you do is going to be a hit.

614
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,520
That's not a reality, you know?
It really isn't.

615
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,760
And we were always more concerned
about, you know,

616
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,040
<font color="
a career than a hit.

617
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:53,240
When it came to calling the album
something, there was a strong...

618
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,600
..movement to have the album called
The Working Hour.

619
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:05,080
And there was a very big argument...

620
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,440
..cos I wanted to call it
<font color="

621
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:10,720
And I was the only one.

622
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:13,960
And I won.

623
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,240
And also,
it was the same with the artwork.

624
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,120
They were trying to do the artwork,

625
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,880
so they're going to get some kind of
Miro-like squiggle,

626
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,080
and Curt and I had just done
<font color="

627
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,240
I was looking at the proofs.

628
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,800
I said, "That's the album cover."

629
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,520
It was as simple as that.

630
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,680
They chose that picture,

631
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,640
they put on the title,
and it was like...

632
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,360
It's a no-brainer.

633
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:43,920
It's classic.

634
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,240
<font color="
sort of tortured adolescents,

635
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:49,280
if that. Very sort of sweet.

636
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,480
They weren't the sort of usual
cocky rock stars or pop stars

637
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,320
that were around at that time.

638
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,840
Duran Duran, they just seemed
to be made for pop music.

639
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,000
<font color="
they strutted,

640
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,600
they did the whole thing.

641
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,240
And yet these two look like two
little dormice sitting together

642
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:08,080
on the cover of the album,
very worried.

643
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:28,920
I wasn't sure about the lyrics.

644
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,600
<font color="
other than it's a love song.

645
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:33,960
Curt finished the lyrics...

646
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:36,160
..for me - thank God.

647
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,640
I think when Roland says
it's kind of a simple love song,

648
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,040
I think that's more lyrically
than it is in the recording.

649
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,720
<font color="

650
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:45,520
and what makes it more than that
is the recording of it.

651
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,840
You know, once you start with
that big piano motif,

652
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,960
you're just saying,
"Hello, this is a big song."

653
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,720
One of the coolest things
<font color="

654
00:38:54,720 --> 00:39:00,080
piano sounds with a rock setting.

655
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,760
That's very cool.

656
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,080
And it's clean.

657
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,520
MUSIC: Head Over Heels
by Tears For Fears

658
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,000
This is bar 8 - arpeggio.

659
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:13,520
ISOLATED SYNTH TRACK PLAYS

660
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,240
And there's a beautiful metal on top
<font color="

661
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,720
We just mixed in a tiny bit. Yeah.

662
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:29,400
METALLIC PERCUSSION PLAYS

663
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:30,600
And that's it for the intro.

664
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,320


665
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,560
That does sound great
on top of the piano, doesn't it?

666
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,800
The whole nature of it.
<font color="

667
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,760

against the child in your face

668
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,240


669
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:49,440
It's unique,
in that it's sort of a love song,

670
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,560
which Roland would very rarely
delve into.

671
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,240
<font color="
"I love you" in terms of structure

672
00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:59,560
and the chords and, you know...

673
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,120
It's quite an involved bit of music.

674
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,360
I just love that chorus. It's
just... It's a monster of a chorus.

675
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,360
And it's a beautiful melody.

676
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,440

<font color="

677
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:20,760

till I'm head over heels...

678
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,080
We felt it could be like

679
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:28,160
Take Me To The River
by Talking Heads, feel-wise.

680
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,600
Fabulous bass playing, isn't it?
It is fantastic. Great part. Yeah.

681
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,120
<font color="

682
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,000
ISOLATED BASS AND DRUMS PLAYS

683
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,240
That's Take Me To The River.

684
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,120
I mean, that's just
so hooking itself. I know.

685
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,200
Rhythm is something that is what
drives me most of the time anyway,

686
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,120
so the bass and drums are really
<font color="

687
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:02,040
And, you know, there's nothing to me
more pleasurable than when you're

688
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:08,400
really completely as one and tight
with a drummer, being a bass player.

689
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,200
If you listen to it against some
of the other songs on the album,

690
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,680
<font color="
of a song.

691
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,120

and I'm head over heels...

692
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,160
Another synth solo,
which I think was Ian.

693
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,600
SYNTH TRACK PLAYS

694
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:32,360
A stab on the end...

695
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:36,800
..which I don't remember at all!

696
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:42,880
<font color="
record it very simply.

697
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,040
So it's really in the production
that turned it into something else,

698
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,400
other than just a simple love song.

699
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:53,320
Head Over Heels also has perhaps
the best, most epic "la, la, la"

700
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:58,840
coda refrain since Hey Jude
<font color="

701
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,360
It's an absolutely irresistible
climax to a fantastic song.

702
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,480
This is a marvellous moment
where the piano and the choir

703
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,440
work together. Yeah. It sets up
the whole of the outro.

704
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,280
<font color="

705
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,280


706
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,480


707
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,440


708
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,440


709
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,440
We did some ambient ones. Yeah.

710
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,000
And then they were triple-tracked
to simulate the idea

711
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,440
<font color="

712
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,320
Which really works, I think. Yeah.

713
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,240
I always liked the conversation
between the piano

714
00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:43,640
and that choir line.
It's beautifully written, I think.

715
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,480


716
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,600
<font color="

717
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,040


718
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,320
It went around another eight bars,
and we chopped it out

719
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,040
and chopped it down a bit. Yeah.

720
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:00,560
So you've got
this wonderful interplay...

721
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,360
<font color="
Really interesting verse,

722
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,880
and then quite a light love story
in the chorus. Yeah.

723
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,080
Dave Bates...

724
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,520
..wanted us to break America.

725
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:21,200
He kept talking about a drive-time
<font color="

726
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,880
I didn't know
what he was talking about.

727
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,120
People drive around
with their arm out the window,

728
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,160
and they're whistling the song,
and it sounds perfect.

729
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,360
Every now and again, walking around
<font color="

730
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,920
Roland would play two chords
on an acoustic guitar.

731
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,360
SYNTH CHORDS PLAY

732
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,960
And I'd hear this and I'd say,
"What is this, Roland?"

733
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:43,600
And he wasn't that bothered.

734
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,600
He wasn't that interested
in making it a song

735
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,200
<font color="
would play it.

736
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,920
And I took the two chords
and sequenced them

737
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,880
with a little drumbeat
and a bass part.

738
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:57,760
BASS AND DRUMS FILTER IN

739
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,960
And then one afternoon, Caroline -
Roland's wife - came to the studio.

740
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,200
<font color="

741
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,840
And I played it. And she said,
"Wow, what's this? It's great."

742
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,240
I said, "Yeah, I think so too.
Tell your husband."

743
00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:17,200
I didn't like Everybody Wants To
Rule The World when I wrote it

744
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,840
because it wasn't called
<font color="

745
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,280
It was called
Everybody Wants To Go To War.

746
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,480
I wrote it on the acoustic guitar
against a shuffled beat

747
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,280
on the LinnDrum.

748
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,360
And it sounded very, very weak.

749
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,760
Um, it was really my late wife,
Caroline,

750
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,440
<font color="

751
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,320
I thought it was lightweight.

752
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,840
Couldn't see anything in it.
I think Curt thought the same.

753
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,120
Even Roland thought the same,
you know.

754
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,960
We were sort of against it.
It was just too...

755
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,440
<font color="

756
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,040
I knew there needed to be a calling,

757
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,880
some kind of sound you'd hear
across the room and you'd go,

758
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,080
"Oh, I like that!"

759
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,040
And I worked with Ian on that,
and I said,

760
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,840
"It's some kind of just
a simple chime-y synth

761
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,400
<font color="
HE HUMS

762
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,280
Some kind of... And he went...

763
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:15,760
INTRO TO SONG PLAYS

764
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,200
..kind of like this.
And he nailed it.

765
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,600
Chris, God bless him, I think
because it was a shuffle...

766
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,360
HE HUMS RHYTHM

767
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:28,160
<font color="

768
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,560
..he sort of...
He would respond to that.

769
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,720
About a week later, Roland
came into the studio and said,

770
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:39,000
"OK, I think I've got something."

771
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,640
And he had a few lyrics
and a few bits and pieces.

772
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,240
And I said, "Stop.

773
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:46,680
<font color="
write this and record it."

774
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,120
And it was written and recorded in,
I think it was five days,

775
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:51,680
six days maybe -

776
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,160
which, for us, was ridiculous,
you know.

777
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,640
We'd take at least a month
on a song.

778
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,120
<font color="
Roland brought to this was

779
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:04,360
the beautiful opening arpeggio...
Yep. ..which is... Guitar and synth.

780
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,960
Guitar...

781
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,360
GUITAR TRACK PLAYS

782
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,080
And that sets the whole...

783
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:16,120
And we're off.

784
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,680
<font color="
Everybody Wants To Rule The World.

785
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,320
It sounded terrible.

786
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,360
When Curt sang it, it was like...

787
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,560
Sounded completely right.

788
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:40,520
It's worth mentioning Curt's vocal
is so beautiful here, tender.

789
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,040


790
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:51,120
<font color="
without too much expression.

791
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,800
It has incredible soul
and depth to it.

792
00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:00,000
The temperature which Curt sings
this is so perfect for the song.

793
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,600


794
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,720


795
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:05,960
<font color="

796
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:11,280

the world...

797
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,640
If you actually read the lyrics
on paper, they're not easy

798
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:19,120
to kind of work out whether they're
happy, sad, pro, anti.

799
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,720
You know, it's almost as if they've
<font color="

800
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:25,160
some clever phrases.
But you do have phrases like,

801
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,360
"Holding hands while the wall
comes tumbling down,"

802
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,280
which emphasised the era.

803
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,600

won't find you...

804
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:33,720
And a few tracks of Roland.

805
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:37,320
<font color="
come tumbling down...

806
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:38,400
Together.

807
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,960

I'll be right behind you

808
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,240


809
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:46,680
They sound great together.
Really good. They really do.

810
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,480
<font color="
Too loud.

811
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:55,680

the world...

812
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,400
I liked the combination
of the two vocals

813
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,040
and how they blended together
from time to time,

814
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,400
and how they would accent
<font color="

815
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:09,040
Roland's voice goes perfectly
with Curt's, which is a pure sound,

816
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:10,320
you know.

817
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:15,760
It's not quite as wide,
but the two of them fit beautifully.

818
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,160
They really were their own thing.
It was very unique.

819
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:23,560
<font color="
was very, very easily identifiable.

820
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:24,920
It set them apart.

821
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,080
In Everybody Wants To Rule
The World, you have a marvellous

822
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,280
song structure where, again,
there's this Tears For Fears trick

823
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,960
of what seems to be starting a
<font color="

824
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,440
so that they overlap,

825
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,480
which makes you, as a listener,
really get sucked up into it,

826
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,280
like the action is happening
and you can't resist.

827
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:49,000


828
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,280

<font color="

829
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,080


830
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:04,360

the world...

831
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,280
We were short of songs,
there was no question.

832
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,000
The last song.

833
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,320
DAVE: I think the initial impression
<font color="

834
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,400
I suppose, cos it was the last thing
we did and it was...

835
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,400
I think "album filler" was mentioned
at one point. Yeah.

836
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,840
We thought it's what the album
needed, which was a light interlude,

837
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,360
<font color="
this huge hit which it became.

838
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:28,960
The first time I heard it,

839
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,360
I nearly wept with joy

840
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,040
because that was my drive-time hit
there and then,

841
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:36,920
Everybody Wants To Rule The World.

842
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,880
You just knew straight away -
<font color="

843
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,280


844
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,640


845
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:57,600

the world.

846
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,720
At that time, the video world
was only just beginning.

847
00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:08,600
There was a huge change
in musical landscape in the '80s -

848
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:09,840
<font color="

849
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,120
One of them was the advent of CDs
pretty much in the middle

850
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,920
of the '80s, but bigger even than
that in the beginning was MTV.

851
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,560
And at that point, they were looking
for kind of bright, shiny,

852
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,720
good-looking people to put on the TV
<font color="

853
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:26,400
Boy, did we arrive
at the right moment

854
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,440
because they were desperate
for material.

855
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,560
And Everybody Wants To Rule The
World was perfect for MTV.

856
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,240
MTV was huge for us.

857
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,560
And they embraced us.

858
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,640
<font color="
shape or form,

859
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,240
but maybe that's what was attractive
about it.

860
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:45,960
Suddenly, these videos could go out

861
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,440
and you could literally hit
the entire globe

862
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:53,560
and people could hear the song
<font color="

863
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:59,040
For three or four months,
we were totally over everywhere.

864
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,280
And you're on TV all the time.

865
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,680
We toured and toured and toured
and toured and toured -

866
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,800
the same songs,
only two albums' worth,

867
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,640
<font color="
the Revox side-stage.

868
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,200
You had to take the machines on
tour, you had to do what was there.

869
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,120
And so I guess they just...

870
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,160
Up there, being a little parrot,
doing the same old thing on stage

871
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,800
every night, people yelling at them,
<font color="

872
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:25,800
And they'd already made it
fairly clear

873
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,040
that their psyches were
a little fragile.

874
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,400
That long a tour, you come back
and everything's different.

875
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:36,120
Your relationships get strained,
<font color="

876
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,440
One day, we played Kansas.
It was a Sunday, I think.

877
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,280
We went back to the hotel
and we went into the bar,

878
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,520
and a woman was on stage.

879
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,440
No-one had ever heard of her.

880
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,640
We were number one.

881
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,480
She made me cry.
<font color="

882
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,240
And I thought,
"That's what music's about."

883
00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:58,760
At that point...

884
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:02,800
..she decided...

885
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:09,080
..the next four years of Tears For
Fears - apart from me doing therapy.

886
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,280
It was searching for what she had,

887
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,480
and we only got it

888
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,400
<font color="
to play in the band, Oleta Adams.

889
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,880


890
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:29,200

She'll always cope

891
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:30,280


892
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,400


893
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,160


894
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,280


895
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,080
<font color="

896
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:53,280
We must have spent three or four
months rehearsing in England.

897
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,000
It was wonderful.
It was a great experience and...

898
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,440
I won't ever forget the first shows.

899
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,800
I didn't expect all the screaming,
you know?

900
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,560
<font color="
of work.

901
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:13,880
It's essentially something that
Ian Stanley spent time writing

902
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,120
and working on and arranging.

903
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:20,800
We'd come back to Bath
and I'd pop up to see Ian.

904
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,480
And one evening... He bought
all this sort of, you know,

905
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,720
<font color="
..synthesiser equipment.

906
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:33,160
Came up with the melody,
programmed all these modulars...

907
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,480
This modular synth,
a Roland 100M system,

908
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,360
which is one of those mad scientist
things where you plug cables into...

909
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,240
<font color="
Anyway, by luck...

910
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:52,080
..with a bit of design,
created the basis of Listen.

911
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,520
And I thought it was just
absolutely beautiful.

912
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:57,920
But, you know, typical Ian.

913
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:05,480
We then had to recreate every sound
<font color="

914
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,040
He didn't write things down,
he didn't take snapshots

915
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,920
of where the leads went, so it took
forever just to recreate it.

916
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,920
And then Chris went mad on
the Fairlight on top of it.

917
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,400
There came a point where it had
<font color="

918
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,400
It had been something
he had been working away on.

919
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,040
And we got down to recording it
for the record,

920
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,800
and we just kept adding
little bits -

921
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,360
threads of synths, harmonies,

922
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,360
strange bits of vocal,
<font color="

923
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:39,720
and it became quite an epic.

924
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:43,040
Certainly the second half of
that track, the way it fades out

925
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,640
and the album waves goodbye, is...

926
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,840
For me, that's quite classic.
That's quite epic.

927
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,800
And then when it came to doing
<font color="

928
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,360
it was really...

929
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:03,480
Ian was just throwing these
odd Kenyan words at me,

930
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:08,040
and I would sing them, but I don't
think they mean anything at all.

931
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,640
Well, they used to mean, "Wrap me up
a chicken tikka takeaway,"

932
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,680
<font color="

933
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:16,600
I'd been to Kenya and knew
the Swahili for "chicken",

934
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:18,720
which is kuku.

935
00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:21,400
So...the rest of it is nonsense.
It's...

936
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,600
"Humay ana chicken kuku say...

937
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,520
"chicken a kuku say."

938
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,880
Absolute rubbish. But...

939
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:33,760
<font color="

940
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,520
If you sing it with enough
commitment, you get away with it.

941
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,320
MUSIC: Listen
by Tears For Fears

942
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,200
I think you mixed the vocal
too quiet. Thank you.

943
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:52,640
THEY LAUGH

944
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,960
<font color="

945
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,760
But it is almost a beautiful
film scene which lets you float out

946
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,960
on a wave of good feeling.

947
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,600
Listen's really important
to the album as a whole

948
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,960
because a lot of the album
is quite dense and intense.

949
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,520
<font color="
is very produced,

950
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:14,240
it still gives you a breather.
There's not many vocals on it.

951
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:17,640
It's really a piece of music
that you can kind of -

952
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:19,600
for want of sounding
a little hippie-ish -

953
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:23,280
kind of trip out to, where you can
<font color="

954
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:24,920
you know, in the middle of the music

955
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:26,960
as opposed to someone
talking at you.

956
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,000
Now, with hindsight, it's perceived
as one of the landmark albums

957
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,400
of the '80s, one of the greatest
musical statements of the '80s.

958
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,120
<font color="
and it stands up today.

959
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,840
The fact that someone said
that Songs From The Big Chair

960
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,880
was an era-defining album, that's...

961
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,200
It's not for us to say.

962
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:47,840
But I can see why,

963
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:52,400
and especially as we move further
<font color="

964
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:57,760
and you keep hearing Everybody Wants
To Rule The World, in various forms,

965
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:02,080
yeah, I do, I do, I think it IS
an era-defining album.

966
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,800
Though it IS for us to say.
HE LAUGHS

967
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,600
Well, not necessarily for us,
<font color="

968
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,040
Cos apparently someone else
said it for us.

969
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,720
That album was absolutely huge
in America.

970
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:16,000
It made it to number one

971
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,880
and it was in the top 10
for something like six months.

972
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:21,640
And that was a time
<font color="

973
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,920
very, very big albums coming out.

974
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:25,360
It takes you on a journey.

975
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:30,800
And that journey can just hit
at various moods.

976
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,640
It can lift you, it can take you
into a dark place,

977
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,360
it can take you into
an uplifting place.

978
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,800
<font color="
pretty much anywhere.

979
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,640
It's...

980
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,640
Yeah, it is a classic album.

981
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,240
What has set us apart since then
is we stuck around,

982
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,960
so, in that sense, you know,
I think that...

983
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,240
I think the album had a lot more
<font color="

984
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,080
other albums of that time -

985
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,240
and albums of more depth
tend to stick around longer.

986
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,880
Also, I just think that the whole...

987
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:14,880
The album cover - the two of us,
black-and-white faces -

988
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:20,880
the title and the fact that it has
<font color="

989
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,080
it's just... Yeah.
I'm very, very happy.

990
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,320

never, never need it

991
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:32,160


992
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:38,960


993
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:49,520


994
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,880
<font color="

995
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:59,400

the world.

996
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,920
CHEERING